GasBuddy Blog

GasBuddy News Article

votes

Millions in red-light camera fines could be returned

Florida Sun-Sentinel -- Lawyers will argue before the Florida Supreme Court early next year whether the cities of Orlando and Aventura had the right to install red-light cameras before they were approved by the Legislature.

The stakes are higher than simply deciding whether their actions were legal. If the court rules against the two cities, it could set the stage for a "claw-back" of millions of dollars in fines paid by motorists caught driving through an intersection after the light turned red.

And if Orlando and Aventura, which is in South Florida, have to issue refunds, other cities could forced to follow suit.

Getting at that cash is the ultimate goal of attorneys from a West Palm Beach law firm who will square off with the cities in Tallahassee, probably in February or March.

Read the Full Article

Submitted Nov 12, 2012 By: BurntOrange

Back To News

Category: Daily News Article Discussions > Topics	Add to favorite topics

Author	Topic: Millions in red-light camera fines could be returned	Post a Reply Back to Topics

REPLIES (newest first)Ignore Short Messages

First

Next Last

rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,419 Points:2,226,625 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Nov 19, 2012 12:43:43 AM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse gazguzzler11 - "rjhenn - I still don't see how still pics could prove that I didn't stop. If I stop for even 1 second I did stop, so I would say that if it isn't a video then it would have to be a high speed camera so that they could show that with the pic intervals & vehicle position in each that there is no way that I could have stopped." I refer you to this Wikipedia article.
SovietSunrise Champion Author San Antonio Posts:7,899 Points:1,117,010 Joined:Jun 2007	Message Posted: Nov 18, 2012 7:39:39 PM Ignore SovietSunrise Report Abuse Revenue-generating PUNK TRASH!!!!!11
gazguzzler11 Champion Author Ontario Posts:3,419 Points:759,315 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Nov 18, 2012 5:33:15 PM Ignore gazguzzler11 Report Abuse rjhenn - I still don't see how still pics could prove that I didn't stop. If I stop for even 1 second I did stop, so I would say that if it isn't a video then it would have to be a high speed camera so that they could show that with the pic intervals & vehicle position in each that there is no way that I could have stopped. I do realize that with today's computer technology that anything is possible so what you say is within the realm of possibility as far as pics being altered.
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,419 Points:2,226,625 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Nov 18, 2012 3:54:38 AM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse gazguzzler11 - "I don't think that a still picture would suffice because if I stop & then make a right on the red how would this still photo prove in court that I didn't first stop?" They typically take two pictures which, based on the timestamps, show you driving through. "The photo evidence has to clearly show your vehicle not stopping as it should with the red light also clearly showing in the same picture. If it doesn't show this I don't see how they could get a conviction in court because this would be the only evidence that would support the RLC ticket being issued in the first place." It would be simple to take the pictures, swap the red and green lights in the picture, and change the green to red. It would also be easy to manipulate the timestamps so it looked like you drove right through.
gazguzzler11 Champion Author Ontario Posts:3,419 Points:759,315 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Nov 17, 2012 2:39:16 PM Ignore gazguzzler11 Report Abuse rjhenn - OK, so you are now saying that somebody might digitally alter a picture to show you running a red that you stopped for. Any time that I have seen something on TV regarding a red light runner it is a video clearly showing the car not stopping at the wide white stop line as it continues through the light, many times making a right turn. I don't think that a still picture would suffice because if I stop & then make a right on the red how would this still photo prove in court that I didn't first stop? The photo evidence has to clearly show your vehicle not stopping as it should with the red light also clearly showing in the same picture. If it doesn't show this I don't see how they could get a conviction in court because this would be the only evidence that would support the RLC ticket being issued in the first place.
gazguzzler11 Champion Author Ontario Posts:3,419 Points:759,315 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Nov 17, 2012 2:30:09 PM Ignore gazguzzler11 Report Abuse honda0105 - Sorry to hear that you suffered because of another driver not paying attention. I apologize for accusing you of doing something that you didn't do. The whole point of my post, as you now know, is to explain that the RLC is never responsible for an MVC, as I have seen many people try to profess. It is their poor/illegal driving habits that are the cause.
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,419 Points:2,226,625 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Nov 17, 2012 2:35:03 AM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse gazguzzler11 - "rjhenn - OK. You now need to explain to me how this picture that you're referring to is going to show you running the red, because that is what it has to show, if you stopped for it." The photos are digital. It would be no trick at all to change which light is on from the green one to the red one. Assuming they actually show the light at all.
honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:18,580 Points:1,605,520 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Nov 17, 2012 12:07:10 AM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse gaz: didn't say that I am rear ending. However, I have been rear ended before by ppl not paying attention. It doesn't matter if it's not my fault, it still is injury to myself and my property (vehicle).
gazguzzler11 Champion Author Ontario Posts:3,419 Points:759,315 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Nov 16, 2012 3:21:22 PM Ignore gazguzzler11 Report Abuse honda0105 - I have heard this lame excuse about RLCs causing rear end collisions so many times that I have stopped laughing at this pathetic attempt to explain your bad driving habits. A RLC has NEVER caused an MVC. These MVCs are caused by one of the following bad/illegal driving habits: 1) speeding; 2) following too close; 3) not adjusting your driving to the road conditions; or 4) not paying attention to the traffic. Anytime that you rear end the car in front of you I would suggest that you would have a hard time shifting the blame to an inanimate object, such as a RLC. Consider this. I'm driving own the road. A kid runs out in front of me. I hit the brakes & stop. You rear end me. Whose fault is this? It is 100% yours because if you weren't violating any or all of the above 4 points you would have been able to safely stop. Now apply this same set of events to me stopping at an intersection. The rules of driving didn't change so the cause of this rear end MVC is you, not the RLC. You can't always blame somebody else for your bad driving habits. If you can't be responsible for your actions then do all of us a favor & take a cab or a bus.
gazguzzler11 Champion Author Ontario Posts:3,419 Points:759,315 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Nov 16, 2012 3:08:11 PM Ignore gazguzzler11 Report Abuse rjhenn - OK. You now need to explain to me how this picture that you're referring to is going to show you running the red, because that is what it has to show, if you stopped for it.
honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:18,580 Points:1,605,520 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Nov 16, 2012 6:01:42 AM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse definitely increase rear ender collisions.
clpassenubye Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:3,359 Points:750,755 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Nov 16, 2012 12:31:30 AM Ignore clpassenubye Report Abuse I hope so these cameras are just vailed scams by city and local governments. Studies show that they increase fender bender accidents and while they decrease the running of red lights its because many drivers alter their travel to avoid the lights with cameras so the stats are skewed.
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,419 Points:2,226,625 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Nov 15, 2012 9:08:09 PM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse gazguzzler11 - "The camera can't say different if the picture doesn't support it, which it has to to get the conviction." All they need is a picture of your license plate and a picture of a red light, with the same timestamp.
gazguzzler11 Champion Author Ontario Posts:3,419 Points:759,315 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Nov 15, 2012 5:16:31 PM Ignore gazguzzler11 Report Abuse rjhenn - I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If you didn't run a red there is no way that they will be able to show anything from any camera that you did. If there is some malfunction in their system that you get issued a ticket when you didn't run a red, they will have no evidence to back up the ticket. This is what my point is. The camera can't say different if the picture doesn't support it, which it has to to get the conviction.
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,419 Points:2,226,625 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Nov 15, 2012 1:32:07 AM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse gazguzzler11 - "rjhenn - If you go to court to challenge the ticket they have to be able to show their conclusive evidence that you did run the red. Therefore, my statement stands. If their system malfunctions & sends me a ticket there will be no evidence that I ran a red because I just don't do it." But the camera says different. And it's the "conclusive evidence" that the court is looking for.
honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:18,580 Points:1,605,520 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Nov 15, 2012 12:03:34 AM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse yea, like the government and its enforcers are giving up revenue... not!
gazguzzler11 Champion Author Ontario Posts:3,419 Points:759,315 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Nov 14, 2012 2:49:57 PM Ignore gazguzzler11 Report Abuse rjhenn - If you go to court to challenge the ticket they have to be able to show their conclusive evidence that you did run the red. Therefore, my statement stands. If their system malfunctions & sends me a ticket there will be no evidence that I ran a red because I just don't do it.
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,419 Points:2,226,625 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Nov 14, 2012 1:14:13 AM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse gazguzzler11 - "My choice is not to run reds therefore no RLC will ever cost me anything." Assuming it works the way it's supposed to work and doesn't issue you a ticket anyway.
LetemEatCake Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:5,595 Points:1,201,860 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 10:31:27 PM Ignore LetemEatCake Report Abuse I had no idea that traffic cameras were so lucrative for the cities. How do the cities determine how many lives were saved when the cameras were installed. Sounds like a guess to me!
gazguzzler11 Champion Author Ontario Posts:3,419 Points:759,315 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 3:59:25 PM Ignore gazguzzler11 Report Abuse I'm getting a real kick out of some of the posts. Some are saying that if there is no MVC that the ticket should be nuked because there was no traffic issue caused by running the red. This sure makes a lot of sense. Some are saying that if the driver can't be ID'd then they shouldn't have to pay the fine because there is no proof that the owner was the driver. This is no different than a parking ticket where there is no driver ID. It's your car, you have to be responsible for it, so it is up to you to pay the fine or have the person who was driving it pony up. Then there are those calling this a tax. This is not a tax because a tax is something imposed by the govt that you have no choice in paying. In this case every driver has a choice. My choice is not to run reds therefore no RLC will ever cost me anything.
SUNOIL Champion Author Toledo Posts:5,225 Points:1,922,005 Joined:Jul 2007	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 8:31:01 AM Ignore SUNOIL Report Abuse I gotta think that the money has been spent so where would they get the cash to pay it back????
KrsnaDragon Champion Author Montreal Posts:2,388 Points:527,545 Joined:Nov 2011	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 5:38:33 AM Ignore KrsnaDragon Report Abuse I'd rather read an article about consumers working together to save on gas.
RonElp All-Star Author El Paso Posts:763 Points:109,620 Joined:Aug 2012	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 4:50:28 AM Ignore RonElp Report Abuse South San Francisco had to give back 1.4 Million back in 2010. Judges ruled them illegal.
TXryder Champion Author Texas Posts:2,686 Points:428,730 Joined:Jan 2012	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:27:57 AM Ignore TXryder Report Abuse good news
NOTSOGRN Champion Author Michigan Posts:2,055 Points:1,508,570 Joined:Dec 2007	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:27:44 AM Ignore NOTSOGRN Report Abuse . . Just smile & wave... ; )
SHEP20715 Champion Author Maryland Posts:8,448 Points:1,711,860 Joined:Nov 2007	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:23:10 AM Ignore SHEP20715 Report Abuse It is not a problem for cities if they were properly approved [Edited by: SHEP20715 at 11/13/2012 2:24:06 AM EST]
skybiker Champion Author South Carolina Posts:7,277 Points:1,556,290 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:20:53 AM Ignore skybiker Report Abuse These things are diabolical..
DozenSpeed Champion Author St. Louis Posts:1,293 Points:391,550 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:18:15 AM Ignore DozenSpeed Report Abuse I don't mind the marked cameras so much as I do the skeevy signal timing trying to frustrate you into running them. It's speed cameras I really hate, so fight these now to avoid the prevelance of those.
imran78 Champion Author Calgary Posts:1,037 Points:649,160 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:18:07 AM Ignore imran78 Report Abuse Old news
rocket_ron Champion Author Grand Rapids Posts:6,266 Points:1,982,495 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:13:17 AM Ignore rocket_ron Report Abuse Wow, cities will think twice before installing them if they have the risk of giving all of the fines back.
CountryPeddler Sophomore Author Tennessee Posts:162 Points:90,855 Joined:Dec 2007	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:10:55 AM Ignore CountryPeddler Report Abuse Well anyway, the question is, since the camera's have gone in these cities, have the Red Light runners gone down?
gmcgas Champion Author Atlanta Posts:5,935 Points:1,710,355 Joined:Mar 2004	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:08:55 AM Ignore gmcgas Report Abuse fine
CountryPeddler Sophomore Author Tennessee Posts:162 Points:90,855 Joined:Dec 2007	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:08:48 AM Ignore CountryPeddler Report Abuse ok then........I'm for changing the red lights to blue....maybe pink....LOL
Rooster922 Champion Author Wilmington Posts:3,773 Points:653,145 Joined:Jan 2009	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:08:13 AM Ignore Rooster922 Report Abuse I got thousand invested? Not on the camera, stupid. In FINES !
1fulltank Champion Author Buffalo Posts:7,888 Points:1,541,385 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:05:09 AM Ignore 1fulltank Report Abuse Many will be anxious to see the outcome. Not just the cities involved but perhaps even Constitutional bystanders.
Matt G Champion Author Boston Posts:4,518 Points:2,770,115 Joined:Jun 2004	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:05:08 AM Ignore Matt G Report Abuse Good, I think they area rip off
kiss4afrog Veteran Author Twin Cities Posts:421 Points:173,960 Joined:Jan 2008	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:58:58 AM Ignore kiss4afrog Report Abuse Why do you hope they get their fines back?? The guilty were guilty of making an informed choice to run the light. Why is it bad they get a ticket ?? What if someone ran a light and ran over your wife, husband or kid. How would you feel about it them. The people who were ticketed chose to break the law. They are bitching because they were caught. Drive according to your states, counties and cities traffic laws and they could have six cameras on every corner and you won't have to worry about it. Revenue generators, I'm glad for them and that someone who is doing something unsafe is being brought to task before they T bone me.
slkmoo Champion Author Ontario Posts:1,233 Points:325,475 Joined:Apr 2012	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:56:00 AM Ignore slkmoo Report Abuse wow
Bezalel Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:12,083 Points:2,287,020 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:51:47 AM Ignore Bezalel Report Abuse "This is not the Soviet Union. " The refund will cost money to process, too.
Karisholman Veteran Author Nevada Posts:281 Points:167,410 Joined:Oct 2012	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:51:18 AM Ignore Karisholman Report Abuse I do not believe they are constitutional
snky2k Champion Author Indianapolis Posts:1,378 Points:300,315 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:50:13 AM Ignore snky2k Report Abuse Those cameras should be banned. This is not the Soviet Union.
hubcapLA Champion Author Louisiana Posts:3,905 Points:940,435 Joined:Apr 2009	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:49:39 AM Ignore hubcapLA Report Abuse Anything to get rid of them. Most are questionable at best.
unicornpmb Champion Author Buffalo Posts:8,471 Points:1,625,515 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:47:09 AM Ignore unicornpmb Report Abuse No winners. Fine money will be gone. Will have to raise taxes for pay back.
streetcars Champion Author Toledo Posts:12,249 Points:2,603,715 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:36:54 AM Ignore streetcars Report Abuse Oops.
bobdec Champion Author Miami Posts:8,949 Points:1,766,795 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:32:06 AM Ignore bobdec Report Abuse U hope they get their fines back
SaturnSC Champion Author Columbus Posts:1,051 Points:829,875 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:29:17 AM Ignore SaturnSC Report Abuse Yay
Packman3231 All-Star Author Oregon Posts:622 Points:1,848,165 Joined:Jun 2004	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:28:06 AM Ignore Packman3231 Report Abuse if the money was being used constructively we wouldn't complain, but seeing the results of tax money in the hands of government one has to wonder.
pa79th Champion Author Pennsylvania Posts:1,762 Points:1,212,850 Joined:Jun 2007	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:25:57 AM Ignore pa79th Report Abuse What does this have to do with the price of gasoline?
comprof Champion Author Houston Posts:6,844 Points:1,353,825 Joined:Jul 2009	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:20:46 AM Ignore comprof Report Abuse Just a way to get more money for lawmakers to waste. Rice study showed they generate more wrecks.
Bruno44 Champion Author Texas Posts:7,060 Points:1,765,270 Joined:Sep 2007	Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:19:11 AM Ignore Bruno44 Report Abuse From past studies, I agree with DirtDauber.